Neuroscience to Tarot - Siddharth Ramakrishnan

JUSTIN CANCILLIERE: How's it going, ParaTruthers? Welcome to Paratrooth Reborn. This is a pre-recorded show on 107.7 FM New Orleans and United Public Radio Network. My name is Justin.

ERIK SCERBAK: And I'm Erik.

JUSTIN CANCILLIERE: And tonight we've got an amazing show for y'all. We're going to be talking about The Goatman. If you haven't heard of The Goatman, I highly recommend you listen to the entire show because it's going to be packed full of a bunch of information. I did have to share this before we get moving.

JUSTIN CANCILLIERE: I was coming down to record and Shelly's like, what are you guys talking about? I know you told me. Hang on, hang on. Let me guess. You're talking about the corn man, right?

ERIK SCERBAK: Yes, the corn man.

JUSTIN CANCILLIERE: And she's like, there's got to be a corn man out there. I'm like, I'm sure somewhere there's probably a corn man.

JUSTIN CANCILLIERE: So if you guys have listened to us before, this will be kind of a review. If you haven't, we've got all this great information for you. So the goat man legend actually goes back a very long way. It actually started in ancient Greece.

JUSTIN CANCILLIERE: If you know anything about ancient Greece and the pantheon of gods, they had these creatures called satyrs, which was. Basically, the upper torso of a man, the lower body of a goat. In most depictions, they have goat ears. Sometimes not. They're human ears. But they always have horns.

JUSTIN CANCILLIERE: And usually these particular creatures have horns that are, I guess, baby goat horns is the best I can describe them. Not very tall or large or anything like that. They typically were mischievous in nature, and the god Pan is the most popular of the satyrs, the god of wild shepherds, revered as a protector of shepherds and their flocks. And that's kind of where we get the name panic from.

JUSTIN CANCILLIERE: The term comes from the feeling one gets when feeling an unreasonable sense of. Fear or dread while walking through the woods and the idea of that is that Pan is watching you i'll let you read the or describe the next one because i'm not as familiar with Baphomet as you are yeah no i mean and this is just to kind of go into the history because especially.

ERIK SCERBAK: Within media one of the most popular Goatman like creatures that we see is that of the statue Baphomet or we see him in drawings and various artistic renderings. But of course, over the last several years, probably the last 10, 15 years, he's become very popular in the Satanic Temple.

ERIK SCERBAK: Now, Bathmate is the name of this goat-like creature that stands in the headquarters of the Satanic Temple in Salem, Massachusetts. I might actually, I should, I didn't even think about it. I should have added photos. I took photos of him while I was at the Satanic Temple two years ago.

ERIK SCERBAK: But he's been used throughout media to represent Satan himself, even though Satanists would deny this. Baphomet is really known as a sabbatic goat and was originally drawn by Eliphas Levi in 1856 and symbolizes the balance of opposites, just as it still does today within modern Satanism. Now, I want to make something clear because there is a lot of confusion.

ERIK SCERBAK: As to what is the difference between Satanism or this Satanic Temple versus devil worshipers because that is something that's very commonly mistaken today especially with media social media in particular so Satanism as it is today modern Satanism is the idea of free will they don't worship the devil in this case although if you were to walk into the Satanic Temple you would believe otherwise because there's nothing but a lot of gory photos of lust with women and these goat-like creatures or the devil, someone having her throat slid open, things like that.

ERIK SCERBAK: So it's a little gruesome for something that's relatively meant to represent free will. On the flip side, Satan worship is a darker occult-like practice in which people actually worship Satan himself, the devil, and make various blood sacrifices and whatnot to him. Now, those aren't nearly as common as they once were.

ERIK SCERBAK: And of course, we have this modern take, which even though it's a popularized religion nowadays, it hasn't quite taken hold like many have thought it would. It's just I think their problem for the Satanic Temple is the fact that it's called the Satanic Temple. There's just too much history there for a lot of these people, for these people in particular, this religion to bring on.

JUSTIN CANCILLIERE: The Hellcats are at work.

ERIK SCERBAK: The cat just fell off the back of the table. I told him to stop playing.

ERIK SCERBAK: Yeah, there's just too much history there. And I think as such, there's not a great, great number of Satanists, I guess, is the only way to put it.

ERIK SCERBAK: But yeah, so there is a difference there and something to just notice. Baphomet was actually given to, there was a TV show on Netflix called Sabrina.

ERIK SCERBAK: And that's, of course, a I wouldn't say a remake of the original Sabrina, the Teenage Witch TV show, but it's a new take based on the comic version of Sabrina, the Teenage Witch. And they use the say the Baphomet statue as a representation of Satan in that particular story. So there's where some confusion started. Start kind of comes in as well.

JUSTIN CANCILLIERE: Yeah. And.

JUSTIN CANCILLIERE: You had talked to somebody over at the church as well. And I don't remember if you got into any discussions about the Baphomet statue or why they use it or anything like that, right?

ERIK SCERBAK: No, I didn't get into that. But, you know, again, the Baphomet statue is to represent an equality between good and evil, between man and beast, between man and woman.

ERIK SCERBAK: And the same, like as... Between adult and child. And you'll actually see two children at the feet of Baphomet. The statue as well. So again. It just pairs with this idea of free will. And equality among all.

JUSTIN CANCILLIERE: Okay. I mean I know of Baphomet. But I don't know as much. I've never gone into it as much. As you've researched it before. So.

JUSTIN CANCILLIERE: Now in American folklore. Obviously legends come. Over to the U S from, from Overseas. After we started migrating here, it's a little bit different compared to the, mythology versions of what the goat man is.

JUSTIN CANCILLIERE: Every depiction of him is a little bit different, but, between six to eight feet tall, or 1.8 to 2.4, four meters tall, depending on. Where you live. Upper body resembles a human. While its lower body is depicted as a powerful goat legs, two horns. In this particular case, though, the goat man in the U S has full goat horns, not the horns of a Pan. And it's a little bit different than the horns of Baphomet too, right?

ERIK SCERBAK: A little bit. I mean, they're kind of similar, I suppose.

JUSTIN CANCILLIERE: Okay. Depending on the depiction of the goat man, I guess.

JUSTIN CANCILLIERE: Now there's several States that have the legend of the goat man, Maryland, Kentucky, Georgia, Texas, Oregon. There was one in Pennsylvania I saw. So it kind of goes throughout several States in the U S.

ERIK SCERBAK: Yeah. Yeah, no, it does. It's. It's becoming more and more recognizable, I think, within the U. S. Originally, it was really focused on Maryland, Texas, and Kentucky. And since then, it's kind of become widespread.

ERIK SCERBAK: But those three States that I just mentioned there are most popularized for being the home of this particular creature. Now, you'll see that in many of these accounts that we're going to speak of today, the Goatman kind of comes off as being more...

ERIK SCERBAK: A nasty creature, something that's looking to cause harm more than anything. But in American folklore, the Goatman is typically recognized as a protector of the natural world who would exact vengeance on individuals who would destroy and build upon the wilderness.

ERIK SCERBAK: The stories you're going to hear today are a far cry from that original folklore, but nonetheless, there really is a debate as to what this creature is and why it exists, and whether it's as a protector or as something else completely. That's really going to leave you up to decide as we go through all of the information that we have.

ERIK SCERBAK: One thing I do want to add in regards to its overall description or depiction of itself is that many people do... Say that the eyes glow red.

ERIK SCERBAK: This is seen in nearly every single account, but I would like to argue that it's possible that these red eyes are actually just natural reflection of light, as can be seen on many creatures, even including humans. We know that the Mothman has red eyes. You guys are probably hearing a lot of noise from my cat, so I'm going to be handling that in a moment here.

ERIK SCERBAK: But yeah, we see red eyes a lot in cryptids. And... Again that could be that they're naturally glowing somehow some in some supernatural way but it's also possible that there's some sort of reflected light that is happening right yeah and i don't remember originally that the the description of him was.

JUSTIN CANCILLIERE: Red glowing eyes i if if we came across that before i don't remember but i don't think that was in the original description that we saw So the first depiction or description that we're going to kind of go over is the Maryland goat man.

JUSTIN CANCILLIERE: This one took place in Prince George's County. The story, there's a couple of different versions, but one story goes that a scientist was conducting DNA experiments with trying to splice human and goat. Dna at the Beltsville Agricultural Research Center had an accident or had gone mad and turned himself into this creature and has been roaming the countryside ever since.

JUSTIN CANCILLIERE: We talked about this on our original episode.

JUSTIN CANCILLIERE: Is it possible that you can do that? Who knows? As far as we know... The DNA experiments are never reported because they don't want it getting out that these things are happening.

JUSTIN CANCILLIERE: Even cloning, we talked about on the last episode of The Goatman. And again, the U. S. Government had put a kibosh on that, or we'll say supposedly put a kibosh on that, because it was not.

ERIK SCERBAK: Ethical in their in their mind but you know and one thing though that is interesting is whether or not they're actually splicing human dna with animal dna to create some sort of hybrid one thing that they have been doing which they've done many years ago and were successful was creating certain body parts on rats and mice such as a human ear that you can then extract and use but on top of that they're actually going are trying to, and I think so far they've been pretty successful, in growing various body parts and organs just out of nothing in a petri dish.

ERIK SCERBAK: These organs would just sit and slowly start to grow and form itself. And they're hoping to use these particular things as an artificial way for implantation for people who may need them instead of waiting on donors.

ERIK SCERBAK: Now, of course, there's a lot of research and study to still go into that, but there has been success in that. So... In terms of the sci-fi aspect of such a thing, I wouldn't, I can't say, I wouldn't say that it's not impossible for DNA and animal DNA, human and animal DNA to be spliced and create something.

JUSTIN CANCILLIERE: No, I mean, there have been multiple science fiction stories that go into that very thing as well. And most of the time you have to do some type of research for that. And.

JUSTIN CANCILLIERE: I've said it before, you've said it before, even in fictional stories, there might be some type of truth in them.

ERIK SCERBAK: Right.

JUSTIN CANCILLIERE: So this particular goat man also wields an axe, which is rather interesting because if it's an animal-human hybrid, I would think you wouldn't need weapons. But he will usually kill animals or even humans that are unlucky enough to come across him. And some consider him a critic. While others see him as a vengeful spirit.

JUSTIN CANCILLIERE: And this creature appears to have human intellect while... Also having animalistic impulses as well, which would make sense with a DNA spliced human being.

ERIK SCERBAK: Right, exactly. And there's obviously so many creatures out there already who just naturally exist with some sort of intellect that could represent humanity in some way. We see over and over again how various types of apes are capable of thinking and acting in a way that a human might, you know, being generous or saying.

ERIK SCERBAK: Or giving thanks and things like that, you know, but they're still animals and they very much have that animal, instinct, or impulses as they do. So I think you're right. I think having, if indeed it's a spliced creature, then there's going to be this constant combatant, between the two sides of the mind, if you will.

ERIK SCERBAK: Perhaps one is even saying that it's human and should be human and act like human while the other is fighting that, you know, such a thing. But again, who's to say for real?

ERIK SCERBAK: Whether or not it's a cryptid or a vengeful spirit, well, that's something we're going to cover and come over and over again in all of our studies regarding cryptids. Because it's becoming more and more known, I guess, or believed that many of the cryptids that we have.

ERIK SCERBAK: Have been seeking or have learned of over the last 50 years are actually starting to become less cryptid in that they're actual physical beings or animals and starting to lean toward possibly spiritual or alien-like entities.

ERIK SCERBAK: So you're going to see that over and over again anytime we talk about cryptids, but in this case, it's very different. I don't know how you decipher between a cryptid and a virtual spirit because there is a significant difference between the two.

JUSTIN CANCILLIERE: Well, there's going to be plenty of those people that say that a lot of these cryptids are spiritual in nature or can travel between dimensions, if you can consider that, too.

JUSTIN CANCILLIERE: Something we'll kind of get into a little bit later is there's a relation between the goat man and another cryptid, but it's more so the.

ERIK SCERBAK: Popelik monster one that it's supposedly related to so i'll have you go over the Popelik monster yeah so the Popelik monster is one that it's actually really special to us in a way so the public monster myth takes us to louisville Kentucky some will say louisville Kentucky i hear that's the way you're supposed to pronounce it but nonetheless now while this particular tale is vastly different from that of Maryland's it also happens to be a place and monster that Justin and i actually laid boots on the ground to hunt for just a couple of years ago and it was both exciting and kind of creepy especially when you consider not only the tale of the goat man but the actual events that have taken place there now in regard to the appearance of this public monster it's very similar to that of the Maryland goat man However, this one uses a completely different weapon to strike down people who venture too close.

ERIK SCERBAK: Instead of an axe, it most notably seems to possess some sort of hypnotic or psychic powers that lure people onto a railroad bridge known as the Popelik train trestle. Now, this train trestle basically crosses over Popelik Creek.

ERIK SCERBAK: And when you're walking beneath it, I mean. Quite frankly, as soon as you get onto Popelik Road or Rudolph, you can't miss it. This thing is huge. It expands probably about a quarter mile of track over this valley. It's really quite a sight to see.

ERIK SCERBAK: But now legend says that the goat man lures people onto the bridges, leaving them unaware of their surroundings until suddenly, seemingly out of nowhere, They're stuck on the middle of the trestle with an oncoming train approaching, leaving them running for their lives. Now, whether the Goatman is responsible, I am sad to say that several people have actually lost their lives on this bridge.

ERIK SCERBAK: And this is something that I think hit much closer to home for us once we actually got there, because we knew about people dying. But when you get there and you see the memorial set up at the bottom of the bridge right next to the river, and you start to realize... Just how many people had actually passed away there and how they passed away. It's really quite a sad thing to experience.

JUSTIN CANCILLIERE: Well, because though, too, in the description of this creature, it never goes into names or anything of people that have died. It's just kind of added to the legend that people have died.

ERIK SCERBAK: Right. A hundred percent. Now, the way people have died, there's a number of ways. Basically, there are people who've lost their lives via suicide by jumping from the tracks to death to avoid the train.

ERIK SCERBAK: And there are others who simply were in the wrong place at the wrong time, trying to outrun a train only to realize they weren't going to make it and having to decide between getting hit by the train and killed or jumping and hoping that they would survive the landing.

ERIK SCERBAK: This thing sits, oh, I don't know, roughly a couple hundred feet high. I mean, it seems not short by any means. And unfortunately, there wasn't an event in which two people had climbed up there.

ERIK SCERBAK: Just for the fun of it, I suppose. And a train had started to come through and they tried to run away. One person was able to leap to the side and hang off the edge of the trestle as the train passed. And the friend, unfortunately, jumped off the bridge and died upon impact into the creek.

ERIK SCERBAK: It is a very, very spooky place to be when you consider all the events that have happened there. It's fully charged with energy that is heavy. It's just thick. It's sad. And so when Justin and I were there, we decided to do a ghost box session. We did some research into or some investigating into the goat man itself.

ERIK SCERBAK: We checked out to see where people actually get on this train because it seems like it's pretty well contained. There's plenty of fencing up to try to keep people out. But unfortunately, the fencing isn't enough. Like Justin and I found we didn't go up on the track. But we found a way to get onto the trestle.

JUSTIN CANCILLIERE: We really wanted to.

ERIK SCERBAK: We wanted to, but thankfully there was no goat man there to convince us. But it's not difficult to get on this trestle, and they really probably should do a better job at securing this. But with all that said, I did want to actually share a video with you guys that I did take while we were at Popelik On The Popelik Road by the trestle.

ERIK SCERBAK: And this particular video is actually just, it's about 30 seconds long, and it happens to be the train itself, a train, crossing this trestle while we are there. While you're listening and watching this video, I want you just to take a moment and think about the things that had happened there. The idea of this goat man, the idea of the suicides, the accidental deaths, and just realize how haunting this really is.

ERIK SCERBAK: I think we've got a very quick answer. I think we've got a very quick answer.

ERIK SCERBAK: Completely forgot the sound that the trains make going over yeah it was i feel like the video doesn't even do it justice like it was so ear piercing you can feel the train just you know your chest is just rumbling you've got this ear piercing sound or squeal coming into your ears and when you consider all the stories evolving around this particular place it is really quite a haunting place to be at those moments and you consider the people who sadly or maybe waiting for help and all they could hear was this train passing by.

ERIK SCERBAK: So, you know, it's something I think we need to be more aware of. And I would like to tell people, for those of you investigators like us who go out into these somewhat dangerous situations, be very aware of your surroundings and be careful when getting into places like tracks or out into the water where safety is kind of like, it just pops up out of nowhere. There's these dangerous...

JUSTIN CANCILLIERE: Situations so be aware and be careful something that i think was in the original research that we did is that other than the the psychic ability or hypnotic ability to lure people up there people would hear screams or or somebody calling their name as well and that going there and doing this kind of mini investigation It makes a lot of sense because of the sound that the train makes going over that trestle and how people would not really understand that it's the steel making that noise compared to a human voice.

ERIK SCERBAK: Right. Yeah, I think in the right situation, it very much could sound like a woman screaming, especially if you're a good distance from the train track. Obviously, it's hard to miss when you're actually there.

ERIK SCERBAK: At the trestle but definitely when you're at a good distance from there say maybe you're at the parking lot across the street it could sound like someone's screaming for help or even up on the hill where the tracks actually are too right.

JUSTIN CANCILLIERE: Right but yeah the as you mentioned just knowing the the atrocities that are that happened there because of people losing their lives. It, it was an eerie feeling in and of itself.

ERIK SCERBAK: Right now, if the public, goat man is real, it's believed to have either been the result of a vengeful farmer's curse or the incarnation. Oh goodness. Sorry, cat. Just making trouble today.

ERIK SCERBAK: Or the reincarnation of a circus freak show performer. Now, either way, whether the Goatman is real or not, the trestles are indeed highly dangerous. But what I do think is interesting about this particular creature is that both of the two circumstances of its existence have something to do with either a spiritual kind of incarnation or a curse. I mean, obviously, a curse can be very much a physical thing.

ERIK SCERBAK: I mean, we hear about... People who become werewolves who are cursed by any number of of reasons whether cursed by the devil cursed by a witch cursed in some other way but you know these curses tend to cause a person in the cryptid world a you basically give them an immortality to haunt a particular place for whatever number of reasons for a very long time yeah you.

JUSTIN CANCILLIERE: It's kind of weird to think about how often that is the case about some of these. Yeah.

ERIK SCERBAK: Yeah. Yeah. You know, and you start to wonder, like, just what people were people really afraid of that these stories came to be, you know, because a lot of these stories that we've been telling, especially within the last couple of weeks regarding cryptids, if you consider vampires cryptids or anything else, they all kind of stem back to the big witch trials of the 1600s.

ERIK SCERBAK: So. That is something very interesting considering how they all link back to witchcraft and curses, because unfortunately, a lot of people feared that kind of thing. And it's hence why so many deaths occur during that time period.

JUSTIN CANCILLIERE: Yeah. I mean, just just from the hunt themselves. Yeah. It's amazing what fear can do to people. Right. Before we get into the Texas one.

JUSTIN CANCILLIERE: Something I kind of wanted to go over was a couple of things that it didn't point to a specific goat man that I came across, but the, some people say that the goat man is a relative of the grunge, which is a Chupacabra like evil creature that features the same characteristics of the goat man, sort of in New Orleans.

JUSTIN CANCILLIERE: And I say sort of, because it's kind of got a goat face, but then it's, depicted as having spines like the Chupacabra so kind of a mix and the grunch is also known as the grunch road monster where it gets the name the grunch and we'll actually be doing an episode on the grunch because it's a fascinating topic and we love New Orleans that's why we went there so and the other part of this is in some cases it's said that the goat man has broke into people's homes and raped them or killed them, which I don't remember coming across in the original.

JUSTIN CANCILLIERE: Right.

ERIK SCERBAK: That's because we didn't. But, you know, when you consider the amount of years it's been since some of those earlier recordings that we did, there is new information handed to us, new witnesses, witness accounts in particular. So whether or not that is something that's, you know, legitimately a case, we don't know. But.

ERIK SCERBAK: If it's part of witness testimony in regard to the story of the goat man then it's something we need to share but maybe also take with a grain of salt i don't think there's certainly a you know a big number of individuals who experience such a thing so this could very well just be someone adding to the pot if you will for the fun of it to make it even more scary But again, we can't really see it.

JUSTIN CANCILLIERE: And who knows? I mean, maybe people were attacked, but it was somebody in a mask or something.

ERIK SCERBAK: 100%.

JUSTIN CANCILLIERE: So the last one, again, we've come across other States, but these were the three predominant. Is the Galt Man Of Old Alton Bridge in Denton County, Texas. That's a very hard thing to say.

JUSTIN CANCILLIERE: The bridge spans Hickory Creek. It's said to be haunted by the ghost of a goat farmer who died a violent death.

JUSTIN CANCILLIERE: The farmer was supposedly kidnapped by the Ku Klux Klan and sadly lynched from the bridge, which is horrifying in and of itself. The farmer's spirit transformed into the goat man and became a vengeful spirit, as we talked about earlier. Many people to this day conduct paranormal investigations at the bridge, and many believe that the creature lurks in the woods surrounding the bridge to protect his property.

JUSTIN CANCILLIERE: Some people say that the goat man is a relative. Oh, I already said that part. So outlines. Yeah, going over notes. So, again, very similar.

JUSTIN CANCILLIERE: Kind of a story, not necessarily exactly to the others, but a spiritual type creature in nature.

JUSTIN CANCILLIERE: That one is kind of interesting because of the story about the farmer being killed. It would make a lot of sense, not necessarily a human spirit, but a spirit of some kind catching on to that and depicting itself as a goat-like creature.

ERIK SCERBAK: Yeah, well... I mean, that's something that's, I think, more theoretical in terms of how certain ghosts, I guess, are formed. Now, I think it's pretty wide understanding that the majority of ghosts that we hear about or speak of are usually human in nature.

ERIK SCERBAK: These are the souls of deceased people who happen to still be here for one reason or another, whether it's happening right now. They're living in the moments that we're living in, or they're repeating something that they experienced when they died. However, there is this kind of theoretical idea that some spirits can transform based on the violence or the certain circumstances in which the person themselves had died.

ERIK SCERBAK: They can become more monstrous in some cases. And when they do, their spiritual form takes on something. Much different, much more animalistic and scary. And of course, we see this a lot with the idea or thoughts of serial killers who have been, you know, who've died and are now haunting certain places.

ERIK SCERBAK: Or not even just serial killers, just killers in general, violent people who take on a dark form very similar to that of a shadow person or demonic entity. Yet these people are not either. They're just very... Driven mad in their spiritual sense, if you will, as if they weren't already in life.

ERIK SCERBAK: So whether or not that's possible here, whether or not a goat farmer had died such a violent death that his body or spirit transformed into this goat-like entity in order to scare or harm other individuals who may trespass, we don't know. But there is that.

JUSTIN CANCILLIERE: Theory on there it's possible i suppose so going over all of the all of our notes and everything and and comparing all the different depictions do you have kind of an opinion as to what it could be you.

ERIK SCERBAK: I mean, when you're sitting on the outside looking in, when you're doing the investigator side of research, and I mean research just via online or textbooks, it's hard to say what something is without simply deducing certain aspects of this creature or the stories.

ERIK SCERBAK: One thing that I find, again, very familiar is how often these stories tend to represent the Goatman as a spiritual entity compared to a... Cryptid, a physical entity of some animalistic origin.

ERIK SCERBAK: So the fact that there's been so many witness accounts that this creature could be spiritual kind of lends a hand in the possibility and even likelihood that it is indeed a spiritual entity. My guess is it probably appears and disappears very quickly. It kind of manifests itself out of nowhere and then disperses into the woods or the atmosphere.

ERIK SCERBAK: At will. It's also possible that a lot of the people experiencing this particular entity or experiencing it after hearing about the stories. So, for example, if someone goes over to Popelik knowing that there's a goat man and they're there at night, their eyes may play tricks on them into thinking they see a goat-like creature standing on the trestles looking down on them.

ERIK SCERBAK: They blink and poof, it's gone. Was it a ghost? I mean, considering the way it manifested and disappeared, sure, we can call it a ghost. But it's also very high likelihood that it's just in their mind.

ERIK SCERBAK: And that's something we can't discern from our point of view, from our POV here. We'd have to actually be there in the moment with them to see if other people experienced it. If there's multiple people experiencing it at the same time or around the same time, like maybe not even together, but just within a span of a couple of hours in one night, then we could say, okay, maybe there's something there.

ERIK SCERBAK: But when it's one individual who's there by themselves and they think they see something and all they can, you know, bring it up is bring it up to is, hey, it must be a ghost because it was there and then it wasn't. That's kind of what we're left with.

JUSTIN CANCILLIERE: I have kind of changed my idea from the last time or from the original episode. I think it's could be more spiritual in nature than anything. I think last time I.

JUSTIN CANCILLIERE: Had said that it's probably more urban legend but the reason i say spiritual nature is because as i mentioned all of these creatures that we talk about can supposedly have be dimensional jumping creatures and it's hard to understand what that is or what that means in comparison to just saying a spiritual entity Because we do know that spiritual entities, spirits, specifically ghosts, can take on some type of physical form at times.

JUSTIN CANCILLIERE: Just look at the shadow people and stuff like that.

JUSTIN CANCILLIERE: Not very often do we see where spirits are killing people. That's not to say that they might not have that ability. It's just you rarely hear that about.

ERIK SCERBAK: Actual interaction with a spirit right you know i think it could be safe to say that these are some sort of interdimensional entities i think that's a very broad term because then we're looking at something that could be of extraterrestrial origin it could be a ghost or spiritual origin because interdimensional i mean that's we don't really know what how the planes exist you know between worlds or between space and time even they could all be the one in the same place or vastly, vastly different.

ERIK SCERBAK: One thing that I do want to consider, though, is much like many of the other modern entities that have appeared over the last 20 or 30 years, one in particular, the Slenderman. He was simply a story on creepypasta. And now people are seeing this creature, this entity out and about. They shouldn't be. He shouldn't exist. He was just a story made up for fun.

ERIK SCERBAK: But when we have a mass number of people who consciously put energy into this creature and the belief of it, it somehow manifests said creature. So if the Goatman was indeed just an urban legend, but its story spread wide and far through what we know today as the internet.

ERIK SCERBAK: Then it's very possible that many, many people consciously thinking of this creature at the same time is going to empower something in the spiritual realm or the interdimensional realm or some place where this thing kind of grows and becomes exactly what the story said it would be. And there is, of course, a lot of, I should say a lot, but there's some evidence that supports the idea that when you...

ERIK SCERBAK: Happen to manifest one of these creatures these entities they can change form they can change characteristics based on what you're writing in or thinking into these characters and i say characters because originally like the Slenderman he was just a character of a story before becoming you know a monster that people are claiming to see which even led to girls to try and commit a murder right that they nearly nearly succeeded at thank the lord they didn't but you know that's something completely different different topic and different different episode altogether but you know that that is certainly a possibility i think and that's something that i think could be happening here with the goat man as well.

JUSTIN CANCILLIERE: Well and we've talked about it numerous times on this show also the tulpa which is basically a thought form not even a real entity per se but if enough people believe in something their psychic energy if you want to call it that creates a creature that becomes physical and go ahead.

ERIK SCERBAK: No yeah i mean i yes I agree with you, but also the top. I think now i think i know the top is a little different in that you don't need a natural necessarily a mass number of people to create its existence i mean yes one can argue that a pulpit is in a sense a imaginary friend if you will.

ERIK SCERBAK: But the idea, especially in like aspects such as witchcraft, where people want to create an entity to help protect their home or their land or help them with certain aspects of life, their daily living, they can create a Talpa in a number of different ways.

ERIK SCERBAK: One could be through thought manifestation, simply giving the entity a name and thinking it into existence and giving it very specific characteristics. The other is using a form of writing magic in which you write the name of the Talpa down.

ERIK SCERBAK: And what it's meant to do for you. And then you place it into a little box, this sheet of paper, and it's supposed to help manifest the entity so that it becomes a real thing.

ERIK SCERBAK: And there have been people who've argued and said that, yes, there are individuals who've seen tulpas, where it's supposed to be some entity roaming around the perimeter of a house to protect it. We shouldn't be able to see it. And yet there have been individuals who claim they have seen... Their tulpas or someone else's tulpa protecting their properties. So again, there's no scientific basis for this. This is something we can't scientifically prove, but based on the number of eyewitnesses out there, one could argue that this is certainly a possibility. And of course, who are we to really understand anything beyond our own plane? I mean, all of this stuff we talk about in the paranormal, whether it's ghosts or cryptids or otherwise, it's all still theoretical.

ERIK SCERBAK: Technically. Obviously, many of us, myself included, believe these things to be 100% true and real, ghosts and monsters and whatnot, because we've experienced things, things that we cannot explain, things that science can't explain, but we know for a fact that we've seen what we've seen, and there's no denying that.

ERIK SCERBAK: But again, yeah, science can't explain it, but there are many people who've claimed that they have tulpas that help them on a daily basis.

JUSTIN CANCILLIERE: Which is fascinating because there are plenty of scientists that would say that the human mind is much more powerful than we can perceive.

ERIK SCERBAK: Right, right, right. Well, and that's the thing about science. You know, they'll say that, but they'll be like, but there's no proof. So it's just a theory.

JUSTIN CANCILLIERE: All right. Anything else that you can think of that we missed?

ERIK SCERBAK: I mean, we've covered a lot. Honestly, I think. We can go so much deeper into the characteristics or just the evidence behind this particular entity or being. If it is a cryptid, though, I do want to argue that if it does exist, it's out there somewhere. And it's only a matter of time that we will see this creature. Now, maybe it's more elusive or maybe it's just not as common as, say, the Bigfoot. Or the Yeti or the Dogman, who we're catching video evidence and photo evidence of on a regular basis. But again, if even them, if they're not cryptids, it's possible that they just simply have more energy being pushed into them through the media. I mean, how many TV shows are there about hunting Bigfoot? How many new projects are there that are out about the Dogman? These stories are getting out there and more and more people are believing in them. And now they're showing themselves more. Same thing could be true for extraterrestrials. We're seeing more of them because we're talking more about them. We're talking more about them because there's more stuff on social media. So these things might just be appearing because we're starting to believe in them, if you will.

JUSTIN CANCILLIERE: Well, the one thing that... We didn't bring up on this episode that we brought up on the first one was there was one or two, I believe, pictures or even a little bit of video from a trail cam or a couple of trail cams, one of which. The goat man is kneeling over the top of a dead body or an unconscious person. You don't really know if they're dead or not.

JUSTIN CANCILLIERE: But that the news, when they kind of did a covering story on this, just zoom in on the goat man's face and upper torso, and you don't see the body that's laying there.

ERIK SCERBAK: Right. And of course, when that particular story came out, AI wasn't as popular. Popular as it is today. And so most likely that was something that was created in some sort of Photoshop thing, possibly, possibly. The fact that they showed it on the news, but said nothing about the supposed body that was sitting in front of it is suspicious to me.

ERIK SCERBAK: Now, it's possible that they just happened to only have the closeup of the photo and they didn't have the whole thing. And if they did, maybe they would have either chose not to share it on the news or would have at least questioned certain aspects of it.

ERIK SCERBAK: But again, that's one of those things we just can't tell or we can't say because trail cam footage and photos are unfortunately just not very clear. And it's hard to depict whether something is indeed a CGI or created in Photoshop or if it's actually an image of some creature.

JUSTIN CANCILLIERE: Or somebody in a costume. Right. They could have even been. Trying to do like a independent movie or something on top.

ERIK SCERBAK: Right. A hundred percent. And if that was the case, he very well, that could have been a photo for some sort of promotion.

ERIK SCERBAK: Or they didn't know this trail cam was going to be out there. And then you, you do see the face of the goat man looking at the trail cam when, if it's an actor realizing, Oh crap. I just got caught on a trail cam, not the actual camera we're using for filming. So that is a question I want to ask you. Have you ever been anywhere on a shoot where it's like a surprise or something happens where it's not in the script?

ERIK SCERBAK: As in like something horrific?

JUSTIN CANCILLIERE: No, just something that's a surprise that you didn't know.

JUSTIN CANCILLIERE: You weren't expecting to happen.

ERIK SCERBAK: Not necessarily I don't think so if anything there was maybe one instance I was i'm sorry my cat Salem is driving me up a wall tonight So one experience that I kind of not I personally had, but someone that I worked with had, we were working on the same movie, but it was a Christian film, actually, my very, very first movie I ever worked on.

ERIK SCERBAK: And we were at a hospital and part of the hospital was an abandoned wing. And someone had gone into that wing and claimed that they had heard noises coming from one of the back rooms and upon investigating, they saw nothing there. So that's, you know, in this case, the possibility of.

ERIK SCERBAK: A potential ghost. I did go back there and try to do an investigation while filming was happening. I was back there for probably about six minutes or so. Not very long. When you're on a film set, it's go, go, go. But long enough to try to get some sort of reaction. And unfortunately, there was nothing in that case.

ERIK SCERBAK: One other instance though, that was really interesting. Not too long ago, I was working on a documentary at a morgue. If you have not been to a morgue, it is a very interesting place to be, let me tell you. I was not thrilled about it.

ERIK SCERBAK: However, there was an instance during filming where, now mind you, on a TV set or movie set, you're typically in controlled lighting. So you have the lights above you turned off and you're using either HMIs or LEDs or... Some other sort of lights to light up your scene.

ERIK SCERBAK: In this case, we had red light within one of the morgue rooms where they were doing an autopsy on various skeletons that we dug up, 100-year-old skeletons that we dug up the week prior. And while we were filming, I happened to see this light anomaly dart out of one wall and into a wall behind me. That was really weird. And it was a really bright streak of light.

ERIK SCERBAK: This wasn't like, you know, like just a subtle, you know, mist. This was like a super bright light, almost like a flashlight going from one wall to the other, but disappearing into the wall behind me. And again, controlled environment. Nobody had flashlights that would have ruined the take.

ERIK SCERBAK: Anyway, roughly about five minutes later.

ERIK SCERBAK: One of the employees of the morgue had walked over and opened the door to the wall that the light anomaly had shot into. And on the other side of that wall was roughly about 12 to 13 dead bodies. And I thought that was really intriguing to see a light anomaly go into a place that happened to have a number of deceased people waiting to be autopsied.

ERIK SCERBAK: Unexpected, and it was kind of weird.

ERIK SCERBAK: But cool.

JUSTIN CANCILLIERE: Yeah, I remember you talking about that. And it's not very often that you're doing a paranormal investigation on a documentary film.

JUSTIN CANCILLIERE: But yeah, so we hope you guys have enjoyed the episode. We really leave it up to you. If you believe that it's a cryptid, spirit of some kind or just a, a fair tale or urban legend of some kind. And we want you guys to interact with us. Tell us what you guys think. Is it one of those? Is it something that we haven't brought up altogether? And now my hellhounds are acting up.

JUSTIN CANCILLIERE: But, yeah, let us know what you guys think because in the end. We're doing a lot of this research, but there's probably a lot that we're not coming across. So definitely interact with us on our videos or comment anywhere that you see or hear this episode as well.

JUSTIN CANCILLIERE: Anything else before we go?

ERIK SCERBAK: Well, I would just say if you guys want to, definitely feel free to like and subscribe to our YouTube channel here. You can also find us on Instagram, Facebook. TikTok, pretty much all the places. So definitely check us out, follow us and interact with us that way.

JUSTIN CANCILLIERE: Absolutely. So I've been doing the math. Next week is actually our Thanksgiving episode.

ERIK SCERBAK: Already? Yeah. Oh my goodness gracious.

JUSTIN CANCILLIERE: So stay tuned for that. We're kind of undecided yet what actually we're going to cover, but we've done a couple of different topics for Thanksgiving. Check that out. We've got some great guests coming up for you. But until then, my name is Justin.

ERIK SCERBAK: And I'm Erik. Peace.